tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8292243573706628824.post5081545920119425010..comments2024-03-18T23:39:15.375-07:00Comments on Stars, Beetles, and Fools: Writing Strong Women, Part I: How It All Goes WrongJG Keelyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16194265398177420233noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8292243573706628824.post-47729949860133674212018-12-05T08:27:25.480-08:002018-12-05T08:27:25.480-08:00Thank you for this blog, your texts are definitely...Thank you for this blog, your texts are definitely food for thought (although you seem to treat some of the stories I love a bit harshly ^^). As for strong females in fantasy - I could come up with some examples from paranormal romance (or books on the border between that and fantasy); I'm not sure if you ever tried that kind of stuff - Anita Blake (the earlier books), Rose from Vampire Academy; it's been a while since I read them last, so I'm not sure about complexity of their characters; what I do remember though is that they never gave up, were extremely (almost stupidly) brave, had tough and dangerous jobs (yeah, right, don't confuse jobs with personalities - but in these two cases, their jobs were clearly the consequences of their characters and 'drives' so to say), and yet remained feminine in the sense they cared about their looks, liked to wear pretty clothes, and showed clear interest in men, flirt and sex. All in all I can't claim they're extremely original and whatnot; but they definitely had strong will, motivations, and what's best, they were tough and persuasive enough to get what things done. <br />Sorry for the rant, but I've already refrained from commenting on another of your articles, and I'm simply not strong enough to do that twice.metlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10044924929019528043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8292243573706628824.post-83079970571123331172017-05-18T15:35:53.203-07:002017-05-18T15:35:53.203-07:00I'm glad that you found the post to be worthwh...I'm glad that you found the post to be worthwhile. The issues I talk about are definitely ones I see everywhere in pop culture today, not just in books, but in movies, TV, comics, and other media.<br /><br />It's obvious that these creators are trying to make better female characters, they just don't understand how. They have other characters talk about how strong they are, they give them weapons, they put them in dynamic poses on the cover, they make women soldiers and warriors--but then they completely fail to actually make them into self-reliant individuals.<br /><br />They are blind to the problems they put into their work, the misconceptions and cultural prejudices, because it's what they were raised to believe. And then the audience, who were raised to believe the same thing, react positively when they see it repeated on the page. It's comforting to read stuff that agrees with us, and tells us that we are right in our assumptions--but of course, stuff like that just increases the bias and self-righteousness of the reader.<br /><br />Hopefully it's something we'll get better at in the coming years, since there is so much focus on the issue right now, and so much discussion. I'd certainly like to see an improvement there.<br /><br />In any case, thanks for the comment.JG Keelyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16194265398177420233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8292243573706628824.post-34999418514909590432017-05-18T14:57:08.125-07:002017-05-18T14:57:08.125-07:00I'm so happy I found your blog because I love ...I'm so happy I found your blog because I love your Goodreads reviews, and I know this was posted a long time ago, but I just...I was blown away by your writing. I totally agree with you when you wrote, "A female character can be strong without spouting cliches about equality--indeed, she can remain strong even as she confirms the status quo" and "Making a character contradictory and argumentative is not the same as making her strong..." because in a lot of YA and Fantasy novels, casting masculine, argumentative characters to represent strong women has become the norm. I find it infuriating. I mean the term is "strength of character," meaning personality and will, not brute force. When I read books, I'm looking for complexity because strength, like all human characteristics, is complex. But my favorite part was by far "A character is not their role" because that is biggest misconception in literary world. Especially newer books. orchidsarefascinatinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12810138232757541555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8292243573706628824.post-43885773395135758732015-06-06T23:46:05.883-07:002015-06-06T23:46:05.883-07:00That's true. I remember having a weird experie...That's true. I remember having a weird experience with a book I really loved on GR and found a negative one-star review of it--and yet it was so well argued, spot-on, and funny that I couldn't help agreeing with everything the reviewer said. I still loved and defended the book, but I could imagine hating it too. After a while, it gets kind of tiring to "renew" the same old opinions again. One of my teachers told me that one of the main attractions of acting is that people get to take on roles that would be unacceptable in real life--like a serial killer, psychopath, beggar, etc. Haven't actually tried that out yet, but I imagine it must be an enlightening experience.<br />Jocelyn And Jacquelinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06782520391472849536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8292243573706628824.post-50127631424288888922015-06-06T23:03:30.831-07:002015-06-06T23:03:30.831-07:00Well, I think it's tempting for all of us to g...Well, I think it's tempting for all of us to gravitate toward characters we agree with, and conversely to dislike characters who have very different points of view. However, this doesn't mean that the first kind are good characters, or that they are well-written, or that the latter kind are bad characters, or poorly-written. It can be hard to look at something and say 'I don't agree with any of this, but it's thoughtful, and very good' or vice versa--but that's a necessary skill for a good writer to have, it's an important part of critical thinking.<br /><br />You bring up Shakespeare, and in fact he's considered the prime example of an author who can get into the heads of his characters, no matter what they believe, what sort of person they are, or what side they are on. He never makes one side flat or predictable, he always makes sure that every character has good reasons to do what they do, strong internal motivations. It's a skill I think we should all try to perfect, not just as writers but as human beings: learning to really get into someone else's head, to understand them, and see things from their perspective.JG Keelyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16194265398177420233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8292243573706628824.post-6664341960331444652015-06-06T20:06:45.881-07:002015-06-06T20:06:45.881-07:00You know, that point about strong women confirming...You know, that point about strong women confirming the status quo is a really good one. I used to be annoyed when female characters did that, but then I remembered in King Lear Cordelia boldly refuses to flatter her father and claims that she'll reserve half her love for her husband. Even after she gets married, she still leads an army into battle to reclaim Lear's throne. Subconsciously I disagree with the idea of a woman's life revolving purely around her father and husband, but I can still admire the spirit and fortitude it takes for Cordelia to defend herself. I guess it's really the agency part that matters. It's kind of odd that a character like that is actually way more interesting than a faux-feminist like Katniss, even though my personal opinions align more with the latter's. And the fact that Shakespeare, a guy who lived hundreds of years ago, is actually more "feminist" than Suzanne Collins.Jocelyn And Jacquelinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06782520391472849536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8292243573706628824.post-16191877965881862332013-09-08T18:23:13.433-07:002013-09-08T18:23:13.433-07:00She was naggy but I never saw that as a strength j...She was naggy but I never saw that as a strength just her social intelligence. But there wasn't enough of that portrayed. I'd find it more intriguing if she was the main character.<br />Then again they might not be able to keep it upAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09853970649063704116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8292243573706628824.post-82039880075422891762013-09-08T13:51:52.760-07:002013-09-08T13:51:52.760-07:00Huh, I don't know. I guess I was just taking h...Huh, I don't know. I guess I was just taking her as the 'mother' and 'queen' character, who usually have some kind of power, though it's often a cliche type, built around nagging and guilt.JG Keelyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16194265398177420233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8292243573706628824.post-68945680966819569892013-09-08T13:36:03.614-07:002013-09-08T13:36:03.614-07:00Footnote*sick(When I see the over rehashed themes ...Footnote*sick(When I see the over rehashed themes from every Disney movie and then some, such as the robin hood arrow spitting cliche. The haphazard, contrived characters and plot. And lazy racism.)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09853970649063704116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8292243573706628824.post-39251241672455498602013-09-07T21:59:37.702-07:002013-09-07T21:59:37.702-07:00Would you say Queen Elinor was a strong female cha...Would you say Queen Elinor was a strong female character? She did seem to act independently to better the lives of others. As shown when she steps in to break up a crowd and figures out a solution for everyone. <br />Then again, the whole movie kind of made me sick and if a strong character takes skill then there's probably some writing flaw preventing her becoming one.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09853970649063704116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8292243573706628824.post-86171109111409427582013-08-27T17:20:42.027-07:002013-08-27T17:20:42.027-07:00I think fulfillment is a pretty important part of ...I think fulfillment is a pretty important part of the character arc--without that, the <a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BrokenAesop" rel="nofollow">'aesop' is broken.</a><br /><br />I mean, if the message is supposed to be <i>'stop being a self-absorbed prat and take some responsibility'</i>, but ultimately, Merida gets away with being irresponsible and isn't held accountable for her actions, then the supposed message is fundamentally undermined by what the story actually gives us.<br /><br />Though the authors seem to want to say something about accepting responsibility, that isn't actually what they end up doing, which leaves Merida a brat who skirts culpability, leaving the message something like <i>'do what you want, seek forgiveness later'</i>.JG Keelyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16194265398177420233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8292243573706628824.post-40750249121919152392013-08-26T06:41:07.211-07:002013-08-26T06:41:07.211-07:00Well, she did almost end up accepting responsibili...Well, she did <i>almost</i> end up accepting responsibility and the marriage, except she was stopped by her mother because she (her mother) felt like Merida finally understood the things she was trying to tell her in the beginning. The thought is there; it just wasn't fulfilled.Arterismos of Yonderworldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16682838704482203245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8292243573706628824.post-82305545124043814152013-08-25T11:47:52.049-07:002013-08-25T11:47:52.049-07:00I might agree if the story had shown Merida having...I might agree if the story had shown Merida having to actually take responsibility and do things she didn't want to do to help the clan, but instead, she just manages to convince the other clans to let people marry who they want--which to me implies that the story is justifying her rebellion, not demonstrating that it was a flaw.<br /><br />The fact that the ending is about forgiveness and unconditional love means that she isn't being held accountable for her actions--she isn't taking on a responsible role, she's just being forgiven and allowed to continue doing what she likes. At that point, what earlier freedom is she giving up in order to preserve the community?JG Keelyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16194265398177420233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8292243573706628824.post-64805278103530755022013-08-25T05:25:14.120-07:002013-08-25T05:25:14.120-07:00Hey, I recently watched Brave again with my little...Hey, I recently watched Brave again with my little nieces and nephews and remembered this post, so now I have to respectfully disagree with the things you mentioned about her.<br /><br />The thing about Merida's stubbornness is that that was the point of her character. In the beginning, she went against her mother's wishes and possibly endangered the future of her family and kingdom because she felt like her life was controlled, like her mother never really listened to her. (I think a lot of teenagers can relate to this want of freedom.) The latter is also her mother's problem with her, and they were never able to open up with each other. I don't think Merida's "I'll do whatever I want" attitude was portrayed as strength; they were clearly her flaws. Throughout the story, she was her own worst enemy.<br /><br />The film's message was how selfishness was self-destructive and how "<i>our fate lives within us; you only have to be brave enough to see it</i>." Both Merida and her mother were cowards in the beginning, in a way that they couldn't honestly face each other, but eventually learned their own personal faults and, together, tried to mend what was broken. As her mother pointed out, they both changed.<br /><br />So, I believe that in that sense, Merida IS strong, not only because she can wield bow and arrows, but because she was (or eventually became) brave enough to admit her mistakes, swallow her pride, and learn the importance of family. <br /><br />In conclusion, I don't think the writers are to blame for anything. They just showed a flawed character who learned her lesson. <br /><br />What do you think? :)Arterismos of Yonderworldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16682838704482203245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8292243573706628824.post-23322310066429919492013-08-25T02:42:27.224-07:002013-08-25T02:42:27.224-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Arterismos of Yonderworldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16682838704482203245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8292243573706628824.post-26148893617927073582013-08-21T13:22:47.397-07:002013-08-21T13:22:47.397-07:00Ah, thanks. That does sound pretty good.Ah, thanks. That does sound pretty good.JG Keelyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16194265398177420233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8292243573706628824.post-8303061216639413492013-08-21T13:21:30.590-07:002013-08-21T13:21:30.590-07:00About Scarlet Sister Mary- she is raw & real. ...About Scarlet Sister Mary- she is raw & real. Torn by the struggle between self & society, but willing to risk an exploration. Her final decision is to be bound by society, but it didn't diminish her character to me.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01179562330177381755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8292243573706628824.post-42827047508338890672013-08-20T20:23:48.685-07:002013-08-20T20:23:48.685-07:00"You might even find that you like George R.R...<i>"You might even find that you like George R.R. Martin's writing better in the episodes he does for the show"</i><br /><br />Yeah, could be--though my experience on GR with his fans makes me never want to hear about him or his work again.<br /><br /><i>"I could pick any one of Pratchett's many great female characters"</i><br /><br />I've never liked Pratchett's writing, though a lot of my friends are big fans.<br /><br /><i>"Trillian from The Hitchhiker's Guide"</i><br /><br />Yeah, I think she's a pretty good example. She's got her own desires and motivations and isn't defined just by her femininity--she's also very smart and capable.JG Keelyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16194265398177420233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8292243573706628824.post-7319092672718520832013-08-20T18:55:12.820-07:002013-08-20T18:55:12.820-07:00You might even find that you like George R.R. Mart...You might even find that you like George R.R. Martin's writing better in the episodes he does for the show; he adjusts to the show's changes of plot and tone without missing a beat. And the acting IS excellent, in particular Peter Dinklage as Tyrion Lannister, who can put a scene in his pocket and walk away.<br />To return to the original topic of your discussion, some of the strongest female characters I've encountered in books include:<br />Sam from American Gods- she's not even in that much of the novel and she's still as vibrant a standout as any of the stranded deities.<br />Thorn from Jeff Smith's Bone series- Smith says she was inspired by his wife; if that's true, he knows her as well as any spouse can know their partner. It really shows in his writing and drawing.<br />Angua from the City Watch novels in Discworld- I could pick any one of Pratchett's many great female characters, but Angua's balancing act between a relationship, her job as a cop, and her werewolf instincts makes for engaging reading.<br />Trillian from The Hitchhiker's Guide- she's just as in on the cosmic joke as anyone else. Just as funny, cruel, and sad.Njordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12517760174309412006noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8292243573706628824.post-47974260229202299462013-08-19T09:37:44.497-07:002013-08-19T09:37:44.497-07:00Roxanne Russell said: "Scarlet Sister Mary na...<i>Roxanne Russell said: "Scarlet Sister Mary nailed it for me"</i><br /><br />I haven't read it, though I do know it by reputation. What made the characterization stand out to you?<br /><br /><i>MovieGuy said: "Sherlock Holmes gets to be brilliant . . ."</i><br /><br />Heh, I do like that quote. That's part of what I was trying to talk about here, where in a group of individuals in a story, all the men get to be 'the smart one' or 'the brash one' and the woman is stuck with being 'the chick', as if that were a defining personality trait.JG Keelyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16194265398177420233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8292243573706628824.post-70894619015323908312013-08-19T09:32:26.720-07:002013-08-19T09:32:26.720-07:00I haven't seen the HBO series, actually. I wou...I haven't seen the HBO series, actually. I wouldn't be surprised if it was better than the book--since having scriptwriters and directors streamlining it, and actors putting feeling into each character seems like it might improve things.<br /><br />But thank you very much for your kind words. I'm glad that you find my analyses agreeable, even if we don't always share opinions on books.JG Keelyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16194265398177420233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8292243573706628824.post-50118246002711737352013-08-18T09:06:53.506-07:002013-08-18T09:06:53.506-07:00God, I'm glad I found your blog. Your analyti...God, I'm glad I found your blog. Your analytical pieces surpass even your reviews for wit and insight. For someone with such provocative opinions (I doubt we have much to agree on with regards to Game of Thrones on HBO, The Hunger Games, Discworld), I can find nothing to disagree with in the theses of any of your essays.Njordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12517760174309412006noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8292243573706628824.post-23657586879827467552013-08-17T22:15:57.682-07:002013-08-17T22:15:57.682-07:00"Sherlock Holmes gets to be brilliant, solita..."Sherlock Holmes gets to be brilliant, solitary, abrasive, Bohemian, whimsical, brave, sad, manipulative, neurotic, vain, untidy, fastidious, artistic, courteous, rude, a polymath genius. Female characters get to be Strong."<br /><br />Bill Shannonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06534564682573532742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8292243573706628824.post-64939531291686487482013-08-17T14:36:42.532-07:002013-08-17T14:36:42.532-07:00The woman in Scarlet Sister Mary nailed it for me,...The woman in Scarlet Sister Mary nailed it for me, a strong woman.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01179562330177381755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8292243573706628824.post-347526973122573462013-08-15T11:50:36.405-07:002013-08-15T11:50:36.405-07:00Yeah, there has been a lot of virulent debate over...Yeah, there has been a lot of virulent debate over the subject on the internet. I was actually optimistic about Sarkeesian's video series, but so far, it hasn't really done much for me. I don't think it's bad, but it's not exceptional, either.<br /><br />I guess if you want to link people to my blog, that's up to you, and whether you find it useful. Thanks for the comment, glad you found the article to be good.JG Keelyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16194265398177420233noreply@blogger.com